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	<title>Comments on: Tuesday&#8217;s child is full of probability puzzles</title>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-7387</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 02:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We have a girl and me and my wife want to have a boy next there are any way that the gender can be decided? Any particular tips?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have a girl and me and my wife want to have a boy next there are any way that the gender can be decided? Any particular tips?</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-7343</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I completely goofed my alternative question. I wrote,“I have two boys, one was born on a Tuesday, then what is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?” I had meant to have said, &quot;I have two children. One is a boy who was born on a Tuesday. What is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?&quot; That leaves almost no room for doubt that a particular child was in the speaker&#039;s mind.

I&#039;m sorry about that becoming three posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely goofed my alternative question. I wrote,“I have two boys, one was born on a Tuesday, then what is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?” I had meant to have said, &#8220;I have two children. One is a boy who was born on a Tuesday. What is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?&#8221; That leaves almost no room for doubt that a particular child was in the speaker&#8217;s mind.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry about that becoming three posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-7342</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 02:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-7342</guid>
		<description>Aaargh! That&#039;s still not clear enough. The interpretaion of the thoughts of the information giver is important. If you believed that a particular child was being referenced, then you&#039;d be right to go for 1/2. But that would be boring, and for that reason, I&#039;d choose to assume that, that no particular child was being referenced was the interpretation that you were supposed to be using. For the simpler (non Tuesday version), you could use more transparent phrasing (and possibly kill the amusement of the ensuing arguments) by saying &quot;I have two children, they&#039;re not both girls. What is the probability that I have two boys?&quot; That way it is harder to justify that a particular child was being referenced. I can&#039;t think up a similar phrasing for the Tuesday birth though.

In summary, the problem is largely posted because of the seeming paradox when you get 13/27 or 1/3 as the intended (correct) answer. The problem only really works because we don&#039;t normally expect people to give very precise spoken (or written) statements, and so we have a tendency to extrapolate what was actually meant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaargh! That&#8217;s still not clear enough. The interpretaion of the thoughts of the information giver is important. If you believed that a particular child was being referenced, then you&#8217;d be right to go for 1/2. But that would be boring, and for that reason, I&#8217;d choose to assume that, that no particular child was being referenced was the interpretation that you were supposed to be using. For the simpler (non Tuesday version), you could use more transparent phrasing (and possibly kill the amusement of the ensuing arguments) by saying &#8220;I have two children, they&#8217;re not both girls. What is the probability that I have two boys?&#8221; That way it is harder to justify that a particular child was being referenced. I can&#8217;t think up a similar phrasing for the Tuesday birth though.</p>
<p>In summary, the problem is largely posted because of the seeming paradox when you get 13/27 or 1/3 as the intended (correct) answer. The problem only really works because we don&#8217;t normally expect people to give very precise spoken (or written) statements, and so we have a tendency to extrapolate what was actually meant.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-7341</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 01:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-7341</guid>
		<description>I only came across this problem for the first time about a week ago. But I have seen and understood a few similar problems. The interpretation of the question is crucial. I assume that the understanding is that the starting point is to consider all possible families (with the assumption that the gender probability is 1/2 and independent of the gender of any siblings). We discard all families that don&#039;t have two children. I note that everyone does that automatically and without noticing that they&#039;ve actually used conditional probability (in this case we&#039;re given that there are two children). In this (idealised) problem, we also assume that it is equally likely that a child could be born on any day of the week. That gives 196 equally likely combinations of two children families.  The families that correspond to at least one boy born on a Tuesday form a cross (formed by one row and one column). That cross consists of 27 equiprobable cells (because they were equiprobable before we starting examining the subset). Of those 27 cells, only 13 correspond to two boys. So the probability sought is 13/27.

If the question had been phrased more like &quot;I have two boys, one was born on a Tuesday, then what is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?&quot;, then the semantics have changed - in fact you have been given more information, because a particular child has been singled out (in my opinion, of course). But  (IMO) the original question has been deliberately phrased so as to not be referring to a particular child. That, I believe, is at the heart of why people get confused about the answer.

Of course, some people get confused because they haven&#039;t got a clue about what&#039;s really being asked. When I posted this problem, someone in an attempt to lampoon it, suggested that you may as well ask what if one of the boys had a tentacle growing out of his head? I responded that if the probability that a boy has a tentacle growing out of his head is p, then the probability of there being two boys = (1/2)(1-p/2)/(1-p/4). That varies from 1/3 to 1/2 as p varies from 1 to 0.

On the Tuesday not mentioned version of the problem, a typical attitude is that you know for sure that one child is a boy, so the other being a boy/girl is 50-50. But this would be equivalent to only looking at families where you only (initially) sampled one of the children and didn&#039;t examine the second one if the first was a girl. You&#039;d then be excluding mixed gender families that you shouldn&#039;t have excluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only came across this problem for the first time about a week ago. But I have seen and understood a few similar problems. The interpretation of the question is crucial. I assume that the understanding is that the starting point is to consider all possible families (with the assumption that the gender probability is 1/2 and independent of the gender of any siblings). We discard all families that don&#8217;t have two children. I note that everyone does that automatically and without noticing that they&#8217;ve actually used conditional probability (in this case we&#8217;re given that there are two children). In this (idealised) problem, we also assume that it is equally likely that a child could be born on any day of the week. That gives 196 equally likely combinations of two children families.  The families that correspond to at least one boy born on a Tuesday form a cross (formed by one row and one column). That cross consists of 27 equiprobable cells (because they were equiprobable before we starting examining the subset). Of those 27 cells, only 13 correspond to two boys. So the probability sought is 13/27.</p>
<p>If the question had been phrased more like &#8220;I have two boys, one was born on a Tuesday, then what is the probability that the OTHER is a boy?&#8221;, then the semantics have changed &#8211; in fact you have been given more information, because a particular child has been singled out (in my opinion, of course). But  (IMO) the original question has been deliberately phrased so as to not be referring to a particular child. That, I believe, is at the heart of why people get confused about the answer.</p>
<p>Of course, some people get confused because they haven&#8217;t got a clue about what&#8217;s really being asked. When I posted this problem, someone in an attempt to lampoon it, suggested that you may as well ask what if one of the boys had a tentacle growing out of his head? I responded that if the probability that a boy has a tentacle growing out of his head is p, then the probability of there being two boys = (1/2)(1-p/2)/(1-p/4). That varies from 1/3 to 1/2 as p varies from 1 to 0.</p>
<p>On the Tuesday not mentioned version of the problem, a typical attitude is that you know for sure that one child is a boy, so the other being a boy/girl is 50-50. But this would be equivalent to only looking at families where you only (initially) sampled one of the children and didn&#8217;t examine the second one if the first was a girl. You&#8217;d then be excluding mixed gender families that you shouldn&#8217;t have excluded.</p>
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		<title>By: Tuesday puzzle</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-6978</link>
		<dc:creator>Tuesday puzzle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 13:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-6978</guid>
		<description>[...] you sya &quot;tuesday&#039;s puzzle&quot;, was the girl born on a tuesday ?      I have two children. One is a boy born on a Tuesday. What is the probability I have two [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you sya &quot;tuesday&#039;s puzzle&quot;, was the girl born on a tuesday ?      I have two children. One is a boy born on a Tuesday. What is the probability I have two [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JeffJo</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-5989</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffJo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Dec 2010 17:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-5989</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the cookie, Andy. :)

Maybe I didn&#039;t say it explicitly, but I too believe that B must equal T. I was emphasizing what happens when they are different, to try to explain why people do not initially expect the 13/27 answer. Essentially (and this comes up a lot in this post), we have no reason to treat the two facts differently, so we must treat them the same. It was for this reason that Gary Foshee&#039;s insists T must be 1, since the accepted answer without &quot;born on&quot; information is that B=1.

But the issue you refer to isn’t quite that &quot;somebody is twice as likely to mention in conversation that they have a son just because they have 2 sons,&quot; even though it reduces to that. It is really two issues. First, are they more or less likely to mention one the gender of one child when they have a mixed-gender family rather than a single-gender family? If they are, there is no way we can answer the question since we don’t know by how much the probabilities differ. Puzzles often leave details like that out, for brevity, and we really can&#039;t assume anything except that these two factors are independent. Second, are they more or less likely to mention a boy this way, than a girl, when they have a mixed gender family? And again, by how much? That&#039;s where my factor B comes in. If the problem doesn’t say or imply a value, we have to assume here, too, that there is no difference, and B=1/2.

The problem is, mathematicians and puzzle designers seem predisposed to believe there is an implied value for this problem, or that there should be and it is B=T=1. Look up Keith Devlin&#039;s (of the blog Devlin&#039;s Angle) response to it last May. He says, essentially, that as worded we really should have used B=T=1/2; but if the problem is worded &quot;given the man has a boy born on a Tuesday,&quot; we should use B=T=1. I think that also is wrong.

The mistake Devlin is making is of taking how we read the expression P(E&#124;C), as &quot;the probability of event E given event C.&quot; He applies a magical implication from the word &quot;given&quot; corresponding to this colloquialism. He overlooks that the expression really means &quot;the probability event E happens, given that the outcome is constrained to event C AND UNCONSTRAINED WITHIN EVENT C.&quot; Other fields of math don’t care what happens when the stated conditions aren&#039;t met, so this difference never comes up there. Probability does, but we misuse the word.

There is a lot of extra meaning in the fact that capitalized part. For example, like I said before, if &quot;given&quot; provides this meaning, then in the Monty Hall Problem, &quot;given that Monty Hall opened Door #3 to reveal a goat&quot; means that Monty opened Door #3 BECAUSE it had a goat, regardless of the other unchosen door. This makes the probability that the contestant&#039;s door already has the prize 1/2, and I doubt Dr. Devlin would agree that &quot;given&quot; implies that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the cookie, Andy. <img src='http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Maybe I didn&#8217;t say it explicitly, but I too believe that B must equal T. I was emphasizing what happens when they are different, to try to explain why people do not initially expect the 13/27 answer. Essentially (and this comes up a lot in this post), we have no reason to treat the two facts differently, so we must treat them the same. It was for this reason that Gary Foshee&#8217;s insists T must be 1, since the accepted answer without &#8220;born on&#8221; information is that B=1.</p>
<p>But the issue you refer to isn’t quite that &#8220;somebody is twice as likely to mention in conversation that they have a son just because they have 2 sons,&#8221; even though it reduces to that. It is really two issues. First, are they more or less likely to mention one the gender of one child when they have a mixed-gender family rather than a single-gender family? If they are, there is no way we can answer the question since we don’t know by how much the probabilities differ. Puzzles often leave details like that out, for brevity, and we really can&#8217;t assume anything except that these two factors are independent. Second, are they more or less likely to mention a boy this way, than a girl, when they have a mixed gender family? And again, by how much? That&#8217;s where my factor B comes in. If the problem doesn’t say or imply a value, we have to assume here, too, that there is no difference, and B=1/2.</p>
<p>The problem is, mathematicians and puzzle designers seem predisposed to believe there is an implied value for this problem, or that there should be and it is B=T=1. Look up Keith Devlin&#8217;s (of the blog Devlin&#8217;s Angle) response to it last May. He says, essentially, that as worded we really should have used B=T=1/2; but if the problem is worded &#8220;given the man has a boy born on a Tuesday,&#8221; we should use B=T=1. I think that also is wrong.</p>
<p>The mistake Devlin is making is of taking how we read the expression P(E|C), as &#8220;the probability of event E given event C.&#8221; He applies a magical implication from the word &#8220;given&#8221; corresponding to this colloquialism. He overlooks that the expression really means &#8220;the probability event E happens, given that the outcome is constrained to event C AND UNCONSTRAINED WITHIN EVENT C.&#8221; Other fields of math don’t care what happens when the stated conditions aren&#8217;t met, so this difference never comes up there. Probability does, but we misuse the word.</p>
<p>There is a lot of extra meaning in the fact that capitalized part. For example, like I said before, if &#8220;given&#8221; provides this meaning, then in the Monty Hall Problem, &#8220;given that Monty Hall opened Door #3 to reveal a goat&#8221; means that Monty opened Door #3 BECAUSE it had a goat, regardless of the other unchosen door. This makes the probability that the contestant&#8217;s door already has the prize 1/2, and I doubt Dr. Devlin would agree that &#8220;given&#8221; implies that.</p>
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		<title>By: SOME IDEAS ON COMMUNICATING RISK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC &#124; Decision Science News</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-5768</link>
		<dc:creator>SOME IDEAS ON COMMUNICATING RISK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC &#124; Decision Science News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 18:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-5768</guid>
		<description>[...] The Information Grid from the surprisingly popular Decision Science News post Tuesdays&#8217; Child is Full of Probability Puzzles [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Information Grid from the surprisingly popular Decision Science News post Tuesdays&#8217; Child is Full of Probability Puzzles [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-5685</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I must praise JeffJo for explaining the problem in a much more eloquent way that I had managed in trying to introduce people to it. The intricacies of the question are indeed vital and the concept of the B and T probabilities helps clarify where the disagreements arise.
The only place I may be willing to disagree is that B MUST equal T. This is because, knowing how people converse, it is much more likely that I will discover randomly that someone has a son than discovering their kid was born on a Tuesday. The random discovery aspect is important as I do not believe somebody is twice as likely to mention in coversation that they have a son just because they have 2 sons. I am willing to be argued down on this but I believe that this does give a defense of the inconsistencies in the values of B and T- thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must praise JeffJo for explaining the problem in a much more eloquent way that I had managed in trying to introduce people to it. The intricacies of the question are indeed vital and the concept of the B and T probabilities helps clarify where the disagreements arise.<br />
The only place I may be willing to disagree is that B MUST equal T. This is because, knowing how people converse, it is much more likely that I will discover randomly that someone has a son than discovering their kid was born on a Tuesday. The random discovery aspect is important as I do not believe somebody is twice as likely to mention in coversation that they have a son just because they have 2 sons. I am willing to be argued down on this but I believe that this does give a defense of the inconsistencies in the values of B and T- thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: The tuesday boy problem &#124; Tholstrup</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-5398</link>
		<dc:creator>The tuesday boy problem &#124; Tholstrup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 06:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-5398</guid>
		<description>[...] Decision Science News has a cool graphical explanation for the problem &#8211; they also arrive at 13/27 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Decision Science News has a cool graphical explanation for the problem &#8211; they also arrive at 13/27 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/2010/05/28/tuesdays-child-is-full-of-probability-puzzles/comment-page-3/#comment-5273</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.decisionsciencenews.com/?p=1658#comment-5273</guid>
		<description>Preposterous.  The answer is 1/2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preposterous.  The answer is 1/2.</p>
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